it's not features or UI that keeps people on 4chan, but rather momentum(established userbase) and a ready supply of schizos willing to put in the time to have an epic thread.
4chan lost the autists to Reddit because it provided a better place for niche discussion and better tools to handle distributions. There are some holdouts, but large scale nerd discussion takes a mod system.
If you want to get the schizos off of 4chan I doubt that will happen because they've got the best settup already.
What I'm interested in is the holdouts and to some extent those that left imageboards due to the horrendous moderation on 4chan. Wouldn't it be nice were they to rediscover the joy of imageboards, and maybe convince them that things can work out in anonymous environments given proper moderation?
Also as a side note the schizos (at least the trash ones) would preferably stay on 4chan arguing with each other ad nauseum, while maybe more rational people took up an interest in seeing what other imageboards are like outside of 4chan and hopefully taking a liking to some of them.
It's a really tough position to be in because most quality users left and those that didn't are populating dozens and dozens of small imageboards.
What I'd like to see, and perhaps something kissu can organize one day, is sort of a "group meeting" of people from various small boards to talk about imageboards and how they can grow. Heck, maybe some of them would be willing to merge. The issue is that people naturally form into cliques and I think most would resist it, even if it would increase activity. Here are some things I think of other imageboards in relation to /qa/ and kissu, shorted to simply "/qa/".
-I remember tohnochan's admin posting on /qa/ to invite us there about two years ago; maybe at least we could have some cultural exchange with them. They tend to be more serious and openly depressive than /qa/ and it's not hard to imagine at least some of the users there finding us annoying
-what was also about to dissolve as whatmin wanted to fold it into /qa/. I think there's a fair bit of activity that left /what/ and came to /qa/
-nen is extremely similar to us, they were mostly turned off of /qa/ by the crazy people/person attacking the community, which wouldn't be an issue on a board with beneficial moderation
-ota has holdouts and they're still a bit different from /qa/, especially the admin's tolerance towards repeated antisocial behavior. I think it clashes a little with /qa/, but the users are mostly good
-sama is similar culturally, but there's lots of trips there which suggests a bit of a culture clash
-4taba's admin is a cool guy who does a lot of testing and has strong opinions about trying to revive western imageboard culture. He also advertised on /qa/ back in 2016 and there's been semi-regular interaction between the communities (if they're even separate)
-gnfos is purposely shitty and works pretty well at what it does, but t's expertise at imageboard/website stuff would be a great contribution if he could ever be genuine about anything
-IRC is a nice side thing, but I can't help but think that it's competing with these laid back imageboards that desperately need more activity
They're making fun of you on gn.
gonna ban those bullies
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I've come to the conclusion that 4chan is the World of Warcraft of imageboards. Just as WoW ruined MMOs forever, so too has 4chan ruined imageboards.
Prior to WoW there were lots of interesting ideas in the MMO space, but since WoW became a cultural phenomenon every MMO has only been interested in copying it. The mid-late 2000's especially is littered with MMO corpses that, in their attempt to distinguish themselves from WoW, missed the forest for the trees completely; they may have player housing and an interesting movement system and such which makes them 'different', but they still keep the same over-the-shoulder camera view, the same quest hub based gameplay, the same leveling, dungeons, raids, hotbars, menus, PvP, crafting, looting, and on and on which are all influenced by WoW. And so many games don't even realise they're copying it.
It's as if developers collectively forget that there are other ways of making MMOs.
Similarly, every board engine out there is just a 4chan/yotsuba clone. Liveboards are like player housing, textboards are some dumb building mechanic. They're different, but not by enough. They still use the foundation laid by 4chan. Nothing else is really worth mentioning: vichan, kusaba, meguca, infinity, kareha, none of them go above and beyond what 4chan offers - they're content being basically the same.
That's not to say WoW or 4chan are bad, in fact the reason they got popular at all is because they did a lot of things well, but you're never going to attract users by making a mediocre derivative of something they already have; People didn't want WoW clones, they wanted WoW. I think the same extends to imageboards and 4chan.
The key difference is that there were MMOs before WoW, games that can't have been influenced by it, do things differently and have stood the test of time because of it; the likes of EVE, Ultima, and RuneScape come to mind as the best examples. Imageboards don't have anything like this. 4chan was one of, if not the first western imageboard, and everything since has been derived from it.
I feel like people mistake the low populations of most imageboards as a catch 22, instead the real issue; it's not a case of no users -> no posts -> no users, rather there's no reason to for users to post anywhere but 4chan in the first place. There needs to be an EVE or a RuneScape of Imageboards for there to be a real alternative to 4chan.
Nothing has or will ever stand a chance competing directly with 4chan, just like so many MMOs died trying to compete with WoW. Kissu has had on average ~39 posts/day (using the first post on the homepage as a starting point), which is considered really quite fast by imageboard standards. I think that says enough on its own. Minor changes aren't enough, there needs to be something really different to break the monopoly 4chan has over our little corner of the internet.
Look, interface really just doesn't fucking matter that much. Noone /really/ cares about how a forum functions or noone would use the trashfire that is reddit. The only thing that matters is the community.
The organization of a forum only matters insofar as it affects the way people socialize on it. Organization does have such an influence, but you're overstating it. Its like a paintings frame. It can influence things, but acting like it can dramatically change things is a delusional webshit fantasy.
Also, futaba came before 4chan, and 2ch came before either of them. So its wrong to say that 4chan started the format, or that textboards are a spin-off.>>2407
-san has it right, mostly.
But 4chan wasn't ruined by bad moderation /in general/, as though letting people shitpost too much is what made it bad. If the moderators are to blame for anything, its a few specific strategic mistakes, like not purging /pol/ without remorse when stormfront invavded it. 4chan was ruined by keyboard warriors who made an active, concerted effort to proselytize, recruit, poise and posture to make it look to outsiders like they were the heart and soul of the community, and be so insufferably obnoxious anyone who disagreed with them would leave.
Such groups should be treated the same way as marketing psychos, or spambots. Whatever their cause.
Saying it was just 'bad moderation' misses the point. Before that, the other force driving the community into the ground was popularity, and the only way moderation can mitigate those problems is by mass bans or being so bad that it drives people away.
there's really nothing culturally unifying about /jp/ anymore. No common jokes or anything
I think invasion narratives are a harmful meme. Why lurk and try to get along with people when you can make low-effort anti-X posts all day and accuse anyone who doesn't like it of being X? I've seen no more evidence that /pol/ underwent a significant invasion from Stormfront than that it underwent a significant invasion from the JIDF, SRS, CTR, or Yang shills. It should be no surprise to anyone that a barely-moderated anonymous politics board has lots of racist posts.
It wouldn't have made much difference were it not for the fact that it was moderated significantly less strictly than the rest of the site. Boards with less moderation tend to grow, and that's how /pol/ came to replace /b/. But /b/ was already a mistake. People on 4chan don't shit up boards because they're racist. They shit up boards because they've learned to make provocative threads that garner angry replies, of which race bait is only one type.
>>2505>Why lurk and try to get along with people when you can make low-effort anti-X posts all day and accuse anyone who doesn't like it of being X?
This is like arguing against nihilism on the grounds of 'Well if nothing matters, why even get up in the moring?' Its just an argument about how much you'd like something to be true or not, not whether it really is. This is the same issue as with 'VIRAL' on /v/. Viral on /v/ was real. That doesn't justify calling literally everything about any video game viral. The fact that thats not justified does not imply that one should pretend there wasn't viral marketing because the idea could be used as a boogeyman.
/pol/ was most definitely actively flooded by every one of those groups save JIDF at one point or another, but stormfront found fertile ground for converts on the board as they found it. The idea that bad moderation will obviously lead to racist keyboard warriors doesn't follow. Why? The sorts of racism popular on /pol/ are fringe, there's no reason they should have naturally dominated the forum over any other fringe viewpoints except for the deliberate effort to bring as many people as possible into their ranks and drive out as many people as possible who won't join. Absurd racism threads aren't provocative or trolling on a board full of people who already fully agree with such things. /pol/ users aren't usually trolling when they derail other threads on other boards with their ideology, they think their ideology should tinge every discussion and will not tolerate anyone who isn't interested on ""their"" site, like SJW's on tumblr.
Certainly, lack of moderation on /pol/ is what allowed it all to happen, but thats a strategic failure that allowed a group of dedicated autists to turn the site into their recruitment camp. If the problem was just bad moderation in general, not failure to deal with a specific attempt at takeover like this, the death would be slower and more painful, like it had been on /b/ and so for years up to that point.
No, I followed up by pointing out that you have no evidence for the meme. It's more like pointing out the negative consequences of, for example, accusing someone of a crime.
>The idea that bad moderation will obviously lead to racist keyboard warriors doesn't follow. Why? The sorts of racism popular on /pol/ are fringe, there's no reason they should have naturally dominated the forum over any other fringe viewpoints except for the deliberate effort to bring as many people as possible into their ranks and drive out as many people as possible who won't join.
Okay, first of all, there's no such thing as "natural" behavior of a forum. Everything there is a product of human beings. And, yes, humans arguing about politics will deliberately bring as many people as possible onto their side. You not liking some of those human beings doesn't make it non-arbitrary to put them in a box marked "not natural." Second, there are lots of fringe ideas of all sorts discussed on /pol/. Communists, anarchists, monarchists, the Q roleplay, that guy who thought NASA was fake and later that a brown dwarf was on a collision course with Earth and bitched on /qa/ when the mods banned him for being off topic. Third, people with racist views they want to air have an obvious reason to prefer anonymous forums; airing those views attached to their real name has social consequences.
You seem to think /pol/ would have been better if the mods identified groups of "dedicated autists" and banned them. Can you explain, without reference to any particular ideology, how you would go about distinguishing them from "natural" autists? And how is it different from what they do on the 8gag politics boards where they moderate based on opinion while claiming they're banning for "astroturfing" by /intl/ goons?
i think banning racists and hatespeech is a good place to start
There is a meaningful difference between people just discussing the topic on the board, even if it is politics, and people attempting to recruit and assert their hegemony over the local culture. >Can you explain, without reference to any particular ideology, how you would go about distinguishing them from "natural" autists?
Anyone proselytizing politically outside /pol/. Anyone derailing threads with political memes and getting butthurt if people tell them to fuck off with it, etc.
And Im not speculating about how /pol/ could have been better, the mods should have mass permabanned /pol/ users at the slightest provocation, including but not limited to posting /pol/ shit outside /pol/, then deleted the board forever.
Fringe ideas of all sorts get posted on /pol/ but a spectrum ranging from strongly conservative civic nationalism to extreme ethnic nationalism dominates. > Third, people with racist views they want to air have an obvious reason to prefer anonymous forums; airing those views attached to their real name has social consequences.
This also ought to go for, say, anarchists who run around breaking windows. The ones who anonymize themselves when demonstrating IRL. Theres nothing special about racists in particular, in terms of not wanting to attach an identity to ones posts.
i think this is a bad idea. people should be free to speak their minds, and muting someone sometimes makes them all the more determined to be heard. I think a good idea would be to form the type of community that would discourage the type of speech you dont like instead of outright ban it
If you don't ban racists, then you end up with only racists and people tacitly ok with casual hatespeech, since people not okay with hatespeech left the moment those spammers didn't get banned.
i think thats jumping to conclusions
Agreed. I hate(and I mean truly, deeply loathe) /pol/, but just the expression of racism shouldn't drive people away, and if it does, its noones fault but your own when the site is community is overrun, not theirs, since the rules you work by made it so all they had to do was just say stupid/offensive shit.
If you can't even stand being on the same board as people sometimes saying dumb or even upsetting shit, or even shit you strongly disagree with, you're just pathetically weak minded. You should have learned by now to shrug shit like that off. Gore threads don't filter out a boards population until only people who fap to dead kids are left, you either stop caring about seeing it or just ignore it.
Of course, when a community is already totally dominated by people being as actively loud as possible, but thats a different situation than what you're suggesting, where the mere presence of racists(or, by logical extension, SJWs, or loud furfags/ponyfags, or something else) will drive away people who dont like that. /pol/ existed on the site for a few years and was still racist for that time, but they weren't actively pushing their shit everywhere else they possibly could, they were just a deeply autistic board. Hell, /k/ has always been a little racist owing to its userbase of rural burgers, but it didn't turn into /pol/. Yet despite both of these things, and these users probably also using boards like /v/ or /b/ too, the rest of the site was mostly either centrist or left-leaning in that ignorant teenager kind of way, for that time.
Ban keyboard warriors of all varieties.
>>2531>Of course, when a community is already totally dominated by people being as actively loud as possible
how do you think it gets to the point where most of a board is overtly or at least supports hatespeech and racist rhetoric. it isn't like all of a sudden half your board is bigots. at first its just the one annoying spammer who keeps posting skull size charts, then its a few more posters. then a few of the people who don't like that sort of content leave, so now the bigots make up a larger percent of the board.
The problem in that case isn't that they're racist but that they 're proselytizing keyboard warriors. Again, if you leave a board just because someone posted a shitty infograph its you're fault and your a soft fuck. If its a spammer who keeps bringing that shit up at every possible opportunity you should just tell them to fuck off, and when they immediately derail the entire thread to defend their delusional meme ideology they should get banned.
Is kissu the spinoff where people take things too seriously?
No idea how half of you guys even made it to /qa/.
I like to take it easy, but people should have some place to take it seriously I think.
I'm from /nen/ via 2010-14 𝐉
I stopped using 4chan before /qa/ came into being so I never used it.